All,
I've been busy working on forces for 5Core Brigade Commander again. I put "Canadian" because it's not the most historically accurate force you'll see, but it will have to do. The primary driver of this is that I'm 1) lazy, and 2) cheap. As I've mentioned previously, I bought about 90% of my microarmor second hand, and got some really good deals, but that means you don't always get exactly what you're looking for, sometimes you make do with 'close enough,' and that's certainly the type of gamer I am ;)
So here are photos of my new force, which will shortly take on some WarPac gear I've finished previously.
The entire force, in all its splendor. The Canadian CO gives a shout out to Tim, AKA Ditto Two-Three ;)
Another look at the Canadian Brigade: three 'line battalions' (two armor heavy, one mech heavy), a CO, an engineer company, an SP TOW company, and attachments for AAA, SAM, mortars, HMGs, ATGMs, and two Lynk helos w/ATGMs.
The Command stand (right), TOW ATGMs (mounted on LAVs, left), and engineers (with converted Centurions).
Regarding historical accuracy, I have no idea if the Canadians used LAV command vehicles in the 80s, no idea if they used LAV TOW vehicles in the 80s, and no idea if they used Centurion engineer vehicles at all, but they work for me.
Another look. More historical accuracy issues: I don't know where the camo scheme came from, I just wanted to do it ;)
1st Battalion, with two companies of Leopard Is and one battalion of mech infantry in M-113s (I used GHQ Vietnam-range US infantry, which I pulled off the pennies I'd previously mounted them on...).
1st Bn again. I like the look of this one, and I like the look of putting the tracks in front of the infantry.
2nd Battalion, another 'armor heavy' battalion of two tank and one mech inf companies. In this case the two Leo I companies should have been stripped, but I was too lazy. The paint was pretty caked on, but I went over it anyway, which resulted in some discoloration, but, again, nothing I can't live with...
2nd Bn again.
3rd Battalion, the sole 'mech heavy' battalion, with one company of tanks and two of mech infantry.
3rd Bn again. You can see these Leo Is are a different model than all the other Leo Is; these models have lower skirts on the sides of the hulls.
Recon company, split up into 'platoon' bases. Historical accuracy: I don't even know what kind of vehicles these are, just that they look like LAVs, but only have six (vice the normal eight) wheels, and have what looks like an MG in the turret (as opposed to the 25mm gun). Sorry, but I have quite a few of them, so here they are.
*On a side note, I'm not sure why the pics got dark here, sorry...
An SP Arty battery split up into platoon bases. Historical accuracy: apparently these are South Korea-produced knock-offs of the trusty M-109, now in service with the Canadians ;)
Air defense, with two M-163s (which I'm fairly sure the Canadians did use), and the ADATS SAM (which I'm pretty sure they didn't, at least in the 80s).
Two stands of Milan ATGMs.
Two stands of M2 .50 cal HMGs.
Two stands of 81mm mortars.
And the two Lynx helos, which the Canadians used, but I got the colors a little off (green and gray, but the wrong shades of green and gray).
On a side note, I finished off another Hind for the WarPac forces.
And I also knocked together and flocked some 15mm laser cut, MDF fences I'll be using for my upcoming Fall of France campaign.
You can also see a couple other projects at top: some 6mm HR WWII US and German heavy weapons, and some 10mm Napoleonics that I'm re-basing back to the way they were when I bought them...
Close up of the fencing. I like it a lot, and there's plenty of it. Cost $15 at Texas Toy Soldier.
Stay tuned, lots more going on, I'll try to get it posted soon.
V/R,
Jack
Looking great. As previously stated I'm looking forward to reading some of your forthcoming Brigade Command reports.
ReplyDeleteDon't mess with the Canadians. They take a while to get riled up but once they do, they either mess you up or start a hockey game :)
ReplyDeleteThanks guys.
ReplyDeleteGaz - Hopefully this is the weekend I finally get BC on the table.
Ivan - Apparently you're not familiar with Panda-John.
V/R,
Jack
For him, it mostly depends on the proximity of any livestock.
DeleteIf you get him close enough he won't have time to fight ;)
DeleteV/R,
Jack
Seems appropriate - https://youtu.be/eUb0C0iI_GE
ReplyDeleteAnd onto some more game relevant stuff from the BKC forum - logistics. 5Core Brigade is very simple to being non-existent on supply rules?
As a brief run down of the Megablitz supply, units have a supply state with varying degrees of "fight normally" to not be able to attack (but defend ok), defend at lowered strength, surrender if pushed. Supply state is checked on the attack (in case someones cut you off just before contact), and in the "overnight phase".
Units trace supply back to a supply stand (usually two per Division, one for POL for mech units, one for general logistics and also one for arty units to specifically carry ammo for that regiment/battalion of guns), which carry a couple of supply points each (reduced by use, and capacity is reduced by damage also), and supply within X distance depending on terrain and motive speed/type.
Organic supply usually lets a Division (or Brigade or whatever formation level you're using them at) fight for a couple of days except in really heavy combat where your arty will burn ammo quickly, or you're in urban combat, etc etc.
If you can't supply your unit, their supply state drops a stage, then another next check, then...
You can cut off a unit/units by interdicting their supply (either by air attack, or getting a cordon of units behind them so there isn't a clear path to the teeth arms), and thus degrade them down before rolling over the exhausted and unfed and out of ammo tanks and grunts...
Would that be portable to 5Core BC do you think...
TP,
DeleteAnd here I'd never actually heard "The Hockey Song" before ;)
Sorry for the delay, I missed this. I'm also a little surprised Ivan didn't jump in here in my absence; he's probably playing the 'shy' Commissar this week, or maybe (likely) he's just busy. Ivan, you're always welcome when it comes to talking rules. Back to business...
Yeah, Brigade Commander has some very simple supply/logistics rules, but, like I said, it's a tremendously easy and durable system to bolt things onto, so let me address your question right up front:
"Would that be portable to 5Core BC do you think..."
Absolutely! First up, BC isn't 'pre-' broken up into phases, and there is a fuzzy/elastic time scale, but I'm sure you could say 'x' amount of regular game turns occur in the daytime, and 'y' amount of game turns occur in the night, and use that to factor in your three phases per day.
The supply dumps are as simple as having a marker or stand on the table so you're able to check to see if units are cutoff, then needing markers to show how much they have left? When a supply dump runs out, how does a player replenish it? For me personally, the tracking how much a dump has may be a little more tracking than I want to do; I'm a simple man ;)
You discuss air and arty interdiction, i.e., striking the supply dumps. This is still easy within BC. If you're looking to have the dumps but not track how much supplies are there, the BC combat system lends itself very easily to the dump being destroyed, disrupted, forced to displace, and 'pinned.' You'd just have to work out the exact affects of each on the dump and its ability to perform.
Regarding reflecting a 'line' unit's state of supply is very easy, and I'd again suggest simply using BC's casualty states (I'm simplifying just a bit):Out of Action (gone from the game), Taking Casualties (can't move or fire until rallied), Taking Fire (can't move but can shoot), and Bail (fall back, can't move or shoot until rallied).
So, you could use the same markers to show:
1. A unit just out of supply, can't move but can shoot.
2. A unit a little more out of supply, can't move or shoot, but can engage in assault (defensively) OR fall back.
3. A unit out of supply, can't move or shoot, but can engage in assault (defensively).
Maybe; I dunno, need to think on it more. I could also see:
1) unit just out of supply can move and shoot, but shoot only with shock dice.
2) unit can't move, but can shoot only with shock dice.
3) unit can't move or shoot, engage (defensively) in assault at disadvantage.
I'm not sure how to handle units using up supplies faster than normal without tracking 1) what supplies (basic load) the unit has on hand, and 2) what supplies a dump has on hand. That is to say, I know very readily how to handle this with pen and paper (or a boatload of ugly markers), but I don't know how to handle it simply.
Nonetheless, I absolutely believe supply/logistics can be added (even more) to the game without adversely impacting the game's core mechanics, and how far you go is limited only by how much book-keeping you want to do.
Me, I could see myself going for the middle ground: a little more than what's in the rules currently, but not as much as Megablitz. I could also see calling the stands battalions and shrinking down ranges a bit and having a Divisional game. I'm telling you TP, the system is fantastic and can be tweaked a million different ways to give you exactly what you're looking for.
V/R,
Jack
The big question about supply is "how long does it take before it becomes an issue" ?
DeleteWhen a battalion goes into combat, how long can they fight before they have to stop because they're dry?
Is that time long enough that it'll come up in a single battle?
I'll admit, my gut feeling is to just figure that supplies matter only tothe extent where there is a difference:
If Side A and Side B are both equally well supplied, the game effect is zero.
If one side has more stuff than the other, then they get a benefit or the other side gets a penalty.
At it's most abstract, you can modify the number of activations.
After X number of turns, you lose 1 activation per turn, because supplies are starting to run low.
Alternatively, time (or roll) when resupply shows up. During those turns, you get bonus shock dice to spend as you see fit.
Anything is possible, but it depends on what you are trying to achieve.
Well, Megablitz works at a one stand = one battalion level, but supply is spent by Division. You only track individual battalions only if they get cut off, essentially - they can be supplied if within two moves of the supply stands movement allowance.
DeleteFor one overnight "turn" of lack of supply you drop one state.
So you're "actively" tracking the Division as a single entity, and then the individuals as and when, but it's a simple "change the colour of the counter" and no massive record keeping.
It does nicely replicate how attacks run out of steam and defenders can get forced out and back or pocketed off and left to whither without much effort, so it's quite elegant. I've probably written more above than it actual takes just to type the rules out verbatim :D
It's not just saying "Sovs have lots of ammo, give 'em a +1" or the reverse, but lets you see units slip down the scale from "we're fine" to "well, we're not moving but we can fend 'em off" to "if the trucks with the ammo don't arrive we're gonna fold soon as pushed" to "disperse and flee, get out however you can!".
It might be possible just to combine it with morale states as Jacks suggests, but I think I might have to buy a copy of the rules to see :D
Guys,
ReplyDeleteYeah, Ivan, I forgot to mention we were talking about a stand is a battalion, which changes the 'relative' scales of time and distance within the rules. But I think the change to battalions means logistics is, indeed, relevant to the game, and I think it can be done.
For me, I think the four states, or rather results (I don't have cool names for the states, yet):
-Normal, no restrictions.
-Fire with shock dice only.
-Fire with shock dice only, no movement but to fall back, penalized in assault.
-Mandatory fall back, no fire, penalized in assault.
Throw a dump or two on the table, look for units that get cut off. I don't think I'll bother with tracking ammo, POL, and arty separately, but I do think dumps can be attacked.
Interesting stuff.
V/R,
Jack
Yeah, if you are scaling up, makes total sense.
DeleteI'd be tempted to just treat it like a board game as you suggest: Put supply dumps and see if units are cut off from them.
Have some mobile supply units that can only supply at a short range or a limited number of units, but can be moved around.
Add "Air Supply" as an asset for individual battalions.
A possible "Attachment" is "self-supply" (find a better term here). Units with this basically have additional supplies included with them and can operate without supply routes (might be suitable for certain light troops, guerillas etc.)
What's the ground scale then though? How far away can a battalion of infantry reach out and hurt someone meaningfully?
Meant to add: You can even adjust supply ranges by time period: WW1 armies must stick closer to their supply sources than WW2 troops etc.
DeleteSounds like it's quite workable to add some supply side stuff in, then!
DeleteAs well as supply dumps you can abstract somewhat and run from board edge (road entry probably) and say your supply trucks supply from there.
In "moderns" I wouldn't bother with POL and Logistics as separate things, everyone is effectively mechanised out the wazoo compared to WW2 or WW1 era so it might just be more work.
I think I'll indulge in a copy from Wargames Vault and have a look :)
Absolutely supply is workable, I think we just did it! Such is the beauty of the 5Core system ;)
DeleteI sincerely invite you to grab a set of the rules, I promise you won't be let down. Even if you end up not falling in love with them, there is so much good stuff in there (various mechanisms and data that's relevant to holding a game or campaign) that there's no way you wouldn't get some utility out of it, even if you were to use another set of rules.
I can't wait to hear what you think after you've given them a read, or better yet, gotten some toys on the table.
V/R,
Jack